Espiner:
Well, it wasn’t a great weekend for Labour Party candidates in the local body elections and presumably not a wonderful weekend either for their most high-profile backer, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern. She gave ringing endorsements for Labour-aligned Wellington candidate Paul Eagle and to Auckland mayoral hopeful Efeso Collins – both men resoundingly lost.
I spoke with the prime minister a few minutes ago, began by asking her if the shift to the centre-right was a reflection of people’s dissatisfaction with Labour.
Ardern:
I’ve never been one aah, to read particularly into local government elections in that way or to make those direct comparisons, Guyon. You know when you look back and just take Auckland as an example, ahh…during Helen Clark’s time, you had John Banks, during Key you had Len Brown, during us we had Phil Goff and now Wayne Brown.
So, ahh…local government, ahh you see it move in its own rhythms across the country, ahh, and it’s not the case, I believe, that you can simply take those direct comparisons, particularly when you don’t have straight political party tickets in the same way.
Espiner:
Mmm, but you gave endorsements to Labour-aligned candidates: Paul Eagle, he came fourth, and also to Efeso Collins who got thrashed really in Auckland by Wayne Brown.
Has the stardust worn off, prime minister?
Ardern:
(high pitched) Oh, ahh, no, again, and I just go back to my first answer (sniggers), Guyon, I’ve never drawn that comparison for local and central even when we’ve had, of course, in every city election a progressive candidate who has succeeded under a National Government. Ahh, I don’t…just don’t think in NZ those are the kind of comparisons that you can make…(indecipherable).
Espiner:
(interrupts) Your own endorsement though…your own endorsement didn’t cut the mustard, did it?
Ardern:
Yeah, this is the case where Labour will have endorsed candidates even when it’s not running a ticket aah or having someone that’s directly campaigning as a Labour candidate. Yeah, we have endorsements and…and that’s bin [sic] the case for a long time, but I don’t think it means, or believe it means, that there’s a simple straight reflection…and I’m sure National wouldn’t have argued the case…that was the case…when Len Brown was in during their tenure in office.
Espiner:
A lot of these mayors are now…aah…opposed to Three Waters. Will you push ahead with Three Waters in the same way or will you modify it in some way?
Ardern:
(high pitched) It really is important to keep in mind that across the country we still have 37 mayors re-elected…um…and that local government, as a whole, has supported reform.
And I think that’s a reflection, Guyon, that whilst there are many, of course, ahh, who have expressed a view on Three Waters, we haven’t had anyone arguing the counter-factual, and that is, if we stick with the status quo that they would support rate rises – which is the inevitable outcome and that is the reason we are pursuing this.
The alternative to Three Waters is rate rises in the thousands ahh because of the additional water infrastructure that is required.
No one is out campaigning on that. We are in a phase of time where of course where we had our bill before select committee, we are hearing submissions and have been open in making changes ahh to try and make these the most effective ahh changes that we can because they are so necessary.
Espiner:
Okay, to now…to what, 36% turnout was poor…what changes, if any, do you think we need to make, whether it’s online voting or a general election day or whatever…what do you think should change if we are going to increase that turnout?
[Transcriber note: LGNZ analysis of voter turnout for local body elections over the last ten years plateaued at 42/43 per cent. Initial 2022 election turnout is calculated at 36% but is expected to increase slightly. https://www.lgnz.co.nz/assets/Elections-Fact-sheet-19.pdf]
Ardern:
The first thing in my mind, and this is a personal view, change is required.
The way we engage with postal ballots changes the way we are engaging with postal change…ahh…and I just don’t think we can stick with the status quo with a turnout of this nature…
Espiner:
Online voting?
Ardern:
(excitedly) Well, so this is where I think we need to really work with local government. At the moment they have the ability to decide between postal ballot and in person and they’ve always opted for postal. I do want to hear what local government has to say and what their view is, but what is absolutely clear in my mind is we can’t just stick with the status quo.
Espiner:
OK.
Ardern:
The one thing with online has bin [sic] concerns over the ability to add enough protections to make sure it’s secure. That’s a legitimate concern, but it doesn’t mean that just sticking with postal is the right answer.
Espiner:
OK. In the last couple of minutes, I want to talk about one of your cabinet ministers now heading up a lobbying firm. This is Kris Faafoi just a couple of months out from sitting around the cabinet table. Are you comfortable with that?
Ardern:
(high pitched) Yeah, I am because in my mind what’s important is actually regardless of who’s in the job ahh of government relations people, keep in mind they sit within private sector companies and then you have entire entities that would run government relations, that actually the most important thing is that we have rules on how we engage with those firms regardless of who’s in their employment.
Now I do believe that actually the fact that we have such transparency over who we meet with as ministers and on what subject matters, that’s incredibly important. Most of the kinds of protections I believe we need are in play.
Espiner:
We have very weak protections though compared to most countries, don’t we? I mean many western democracies have a cooling off period…you’re simply not allowed to do what Kris Faafoi has done and…and you’re not allowed to do what your own Chief of Staff John Thompson did.
This revolving door of lobbying to…to ahh the corridors of power…it’s an 18 month cool off period in Australia, right?
Ardern:
But…but…again here I would argue…but also (sniggers) you can see in Australia they don’t have the same rules we do about where you can draw sources of income while you’re an MP, so I am not sure that I would make a direct comparison from there.
I think that the rules we have: you can’t draw incomes while you’re employed as an MP or government. We have our…(indecipherable)
Espiner:
(interrupts) But having sat around the cabinet table…having sat around the cabinet table he will know every major policy before the government, he will know which ministers favour the policies, which don’t, who are vulnerable to lobbying. He will have all that information which he is now able to leverage commercially, won’t he?
Ardern:
If I…if I may…actually every, every (sniggers) New Zealander knows our intentions and policies by our manifesto we’ve…
Espiner:
Oh, come on! Oh, come on, are you really making a comparison between a member of the public and a cabinet minister?
Ardern:
(serious voice) No, I’m actually trying to answer your question but you’re not pausing long enough.
Guyon, my answer to this is that what’s important is transparency and ministers…
Espiner:
(interrupts) We don’t have any idea of who he is working for in that respect, do we?
Ardern:
(very firmly) Guyon, if I may, we report through our proactive diary release every single person that we meet with. We report on what subject matters we meet with…(indecipherable)
Espiner:
(interrupts) That’s entirely voluntary, though, isn’t it? He could meet someone and…and not…and not have it appear on the diary? They’re…they’re not a comprehensive list…
Ardern:
It is not…it is not voluntary Guyon, it must be reported as part of our official information act proactive releases, which we’ve been doing since we’ve bin [sic] in government.
And if I might also draw the point, there are literally thousands of public servants who equally are privy to the decision making and are the positions of ministers…we don’t require a cooling off period for them.
Espiner:
Well, Australia does. Australia does, for example.
Ardern:
We also don’t require someone, for instance, who comes out of government to stand down from being in a private sector company who will equally know the positioning of government.
Espiner:
This…this benefits the wealthy, though doesn’t it prime minister, because only the wealthy could afford a lobbying firm and it gives them leverage over what government policy is vulnerable to lobbying?
Ardern:
No. Again, having been an MP for 14 years I think I have a pretty good insight into the way that political parties, ministers, cabinets interact with people who work in government relations or indeed with private companies.
New Zealand is not like the United States. I would even argue it’s not comparable to Australia. My argument has always bin [sic] whether you’re an NGO, whether or not you’re a food bank, whether or not you’re a small business, we are accessible as politicians, you have as much access as someone for instance who chooses to engage with a company for government relations advice.
In New Zealand it is not necessary (sniggers) and so I would always argue the same thing for those companies – come and talk directly to MPs. That is the system that we have, we have protections to make sure that if you do that it’s transparent and that people have access to know that that’s occurred.
But I…we rank one of the best countries in the world for transparency, Guyon, for a reason.
[Transcriber note: In September 2022 the Chief Ombudsman Peter Boshier, found multiple examples of government agencies breaching the Official Information Act (OIA) contributes to growing government mistrust. “Many were failing to provide a reason when refusing an information request, or inform the requester of their right to complain to the ombudsman, Boshier said.
[Transcriber note: 2021 NZ retained top spot in global anti-corruption ranking https://www.transparency.org.nz/]
Espiner:
That is the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern.
