Newstalk ZB Transcript from Tuesday 2 June.
Mike:
So, what happened to the rules aye? Protesters all over the grounds of parliament, well in excess of 100 and not a sign of any social distancing, even the deputy prime minister this morning asking questions. The prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, is with us – good morning.
Jacinda:
Good morning.
Mike:
Do you condone that activity?
Jacinda:
No.
Mike:
And what about the police, where were they?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Ahh… they were present as they are other protests taking the exact same approach that they have all the way through. Aah… they take a graduated approach, Mike, and ultimately those are their calls. I should add these are operation decisions but the same approach is taken for any area where they’ve seen um… aah… gatherings, which is first to educate – warn, before they then move into enforcement action.
Mike:
Well, why didn’t they take any enforcement because presumably when they educated and warned nothing happened?
Jacinda:
Again, Mike, I am not going to um… aah… issue dictates on the police’s operational decisions. They are for them.
Mike:
Are you disappointed in them?
Jacinda:
Aah… in the…
Mike:
…police.
Jacinda:
Oh, aah… they have played a phenomenal role all the way through the efforts of COVID-19. They are the ones on the ground needing to make these decisions and I leave those decisions for them and that’s appropriate.
Mike:
What’s the point of having rules if the rules can be so openly flouted and everybody else is supposed to adhere to them – unless you are a protester?
Jacinda:
And everyone… and everyone is meant to adhere to them. And, look Mike, I absolutely understand the strength of feeling and the sentiment. No one wants to have restrictions in place that inhibit peaceful protest um… or that stops funeral or tangihanga or celebrations, but they are there for a reason.
We have no restrictions in place that are not there for a reason currently…
Mike:
Well, no one’s arguing that. They are there for a reason but… but there’s no reason for having rules or regulations if they’re going to be so opening flouted and ignored by the police.
Jacinda:
And we have used a process all the way through that has served us well. It is a graduated approach. It doesn’t move straight in; in that it hasn’t moved straight in that heavy-handed way in the first instance. Um… but Mike of course my aspiration as a team, of course, is to move away from needing restrictions in all but the fastest way we can get there, it’s just being certain that we are in the better possible position to remove them.
Mike:
Winston said half an hour ago on this programme, given what we saw on the parliament grounds and in Auckland yesterday, why aren’t we at level one? He will presumably raise that with you again, so why aren’t we at level one?
Jacinda:
Well, the first thing I would say is that no one argued at level four that if someone broke the rules that was a reason to get rid of the rules, um… but of course as we’ve moved through we’ve always said that we need to make sure that we’re constantly reviewing the settings and the data that we’re getting.
So, what I intend to talk to cabinet about today is we’ve always said it would be no later than the 22nd of June that we’d have those… aah… that we would move to level one if we continue on the track that we have.
Aah… from the conversations I’ve had with the… from the Ministry of Health and the feedback I’ve had from the Director General of Health is that we are in a position to start considering that earlier than that. Um… so potentially that would be the 8th of June.
Mike:
So, you will consider at the 8th of June to go on the 9th?
Jacinda:
I’ll put… I’ll put to the cabinet that we consider it on the 8th of June. We’ve always left that up to 48 hours before we move, ahh so that’s what I’ll talk to cabinet about today.
Mike:
So, today’s the 2nd, six days’ time, what is it that’s happening between now and six days’ time that’s going to flip it?
Jacinda:
Mike, Mike you will remember that in the same way that when we went into lock down we said well actually we won’t see… there’s a lag here with everything, and the thing that ahh of course, our epidemiologist and the health officials continue to keep in mind is that we do have asymptomatic transmission and so if we want to be in the position where we already have some of the fewest restrictions in the world um… if we want to be in a position where we are probably the only one that has virtually none… which is keep in mind level one, that is what it looks like.
Basically, it’s border controls and nothing else. If we want to move into that position you can understand why we’d want to have that extra assurance of that lengthier period of time where there aren’t any cases…
Mike:
Well… well maybe we would and maybe we wouldn’t. What about the bloke who caught it from an event who said last week NZ cannot wait further weeks over minimal Covid cases knowing that the cost will only be extreme and unjustifiable?
Jacinda:
A couple of things to keep in mind. I mean you would have been out and about as I was Mike, over the weekend, for the most part the restrictions now are… are… um… impacting, you know, through fewer tables in hospitality and a particular way of working there, and mass gatherings are obviously having an impact, but by and large the economy is back.
We do need to start seeing people come back into our cities, but that’s nothink to do with our restrictions so there are some personal choices that are being made in the way that some employers are working. By and large we came out of some of those heavy restrictions the moment we started stepping into level two, and that is why we have some… basically are amongst the fewest restrictions in the world right now.
Mike:
So, if our economy is largely back why do we have 50,000 more people on benefits?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath)
Mike:
The answer is because it’s not back and you know it.
Jacinda:
No, that’s aah… I don’t think that’s entirely fair Mike, there are some who have not survived through this.
Mike:
And the retail association and the hospitality association say at level two we cannot make a living, yes, the doors open, but we cannot make a living and that’s what’s holding them back and that’s more jobs when the wage subsidy is over.
Jacinda:
Yeah, hospitality we know. We’ve just asked of course that there’s still registers ahh and that they have a metre between people who are dining.
Yes, and (indistinct)… retail I’d be interested to hear some of that feedback. Um… why… what those wider impacts are. I do still see some retailers who are doing things that they aren’t required to do and I understand that they are doing it for the safety of their customers but… but actually some of those restrictions are lesser on retail than others so…
Mike:
So, you’re… you’re arguing that people who are struggling to make a living at the moment, who are open at level two is good enough for them and the economy is back – your words not mine.
Jacinda:
No, no, not at all.
Mike:
You seriously argued that!
Jacinda:
No, Mike. I am arguing that the difference between level two and level one are primarily is hitting on hospitality um… and we absolutely acknowledge that, but I am also arguing that the idea of going hard and go early meant that we went into heavy restrictions and we came out, relative to other countries, very, very quickly.
Mike:
So, Michael Barnett says we should be at level one. Adam Crichton wrote that piece in The Australian, I am sure you read last week, that you are pushing the economy off a cliff. Winston says we should be on level one, Hospitality NZ says we should be on level one.
The line of people saying we are on level one is long and loud.
Jacinda:
And Mike, and I’ve just explained to you that as a cabinet we are likely to consider earlier because we always said the 22nd was the very latest.
(Sucks in breath) But also, I can give you a line of epidemiologists who know a lot about the ahh transmission um… of viruses like this, who I also have to give consideration to as well…
Mike:
Is that… is that the point – you’re giving more consideration to the Siouxsie Wiles and the Michael Bakers of this world than you are to people who make a living in business?
Jacinda:
No… no, not at all. All the way through our entire strategy is about… bin about trying to open up the economy faster than others. And we have. We are more open right now than Australia. We are more open than most countries you could compare us to. The only countries considered more open than us currently, Mike, are Belarus and Taiwan.
So, I really push back on this idea here, that we haven’t been focused on opening up our economy. We have.
Mike:
If you go to them on the 8th with a view to opening when – the 9th? Or another two weeks past the 8th?
Jacinda:
We’ve tended to give people about… tended to be about 48 hours Mike.
Mike:
So, the 8th could be open at level one on the 10th?
Jacinda:
Ah… yes, yes it could be a scenario, yes.
Mike:
Is contact tracing a problem? We seem to have gone back to nine days from five, why?
Jacinda:
Ahh, sorry, you’ll have to give me an explanation of your argument.
Mike:
We’ve gone back… the Ministry of Health tells us we’ve gone back in contact tracing to nine days to get 80% of the cases and the close contacts, from five. Ayesha Verrall said originally it should be four.
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Well, all… as I’ve pointed out time and time again our biggest issue umm hasn’t ahh in more recent times… ahh so over the period of say from April, our biggest issue has been the timeliness of people getting a test because the clock starts as soon as… aah as soon as basically you’re symptomatic. If people don’t get a test in a timely way then it basically puts us behind on every element of that process…
Mike:
So, that’s not going to be a problem holding us back? So, you are happy that the contact tracing is not going to hold us back?
Jacinda:
I’m not going to… that has not been a reason for holding us back. No, Mike, but that does continue to be our biggest issue which is why we keep telling people if they’re sick, stay home, get a test straight way.
Mike:
On the wage subsidy, $10 billion wage subsidy, why would Carmel Sepuloni not be interested in getting regular updates and only be interested in looking at those once a quarter?
Jacinda:
No, I don’t think that was a fair characterisation. I think you might have seen that actually we came back on that and absolutely said that we agreed that’s information that we do ahh umm that there is public interest in and we are taking a very close look at and so we’ve got regular reporting on that.
I think we’ve had about 3,200 refunds that have been made, about $83 million has been returned and we’ve been applying an auditing process as well.
Mike:
Adrien Orr said there’s a lot of money in the bank, so what happens with the… this is the IRD loan scheme, small businesses come along, borrow the money, stick it on deposit and collect the interest. If they were doing that, does that bother you?
Jacinda:
We’ve essentially said… you know, I’ve actually spoken to businesses that are… that are not doing that in order ahh… ahh to ahh reduce for instance interest payments but actually out of just the security of knowing that it’s there we did have a limited time available for applications for those loans so they’re as … in cases the hospo businesses I spoke to last week, they’re okay for now. They’re worried about their ongoing recovery as the winter drags on and so for them it was about applying when it was available and having it there in case, they needed it… to call on it further down the track. And I know that it what it is intended for.
Mike:
Just quickly, on the Monark development, KiwiBuild promised to be in by June of this year – do you owe them an apology? They bought on KiwiBuild on the government promise of being able to be in June – they may be in in July 2022.
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Look, without having all of the… of course with developments Mike, there are many, many factors at play that can lead to delays.
Mike:
Indeed, do you owe them an apology though? They built on the promise of KiwiBuild and they’re not getting a house until July 2022, if they get their house at all.
Jacinda:
No. Again, that would be something for Minister Woods to address.
Mike:
Appreciate your time very much. Jacinda Ardern.
